Two rule suggestions

[Rob P]

Edit: check the date - the first relevant post is post 9.

1) If a spoiler tag is used, you are required to state what it spoils. Too many threads have spoiler tagged text where you cannot deduce what it spoils without reading it and some posts have an entire block of spoiler text and no other text.

2) This is a bit of a consequence of the forum re-organisation a few months back. Anticipation and pre-release discussion threads should not evolve into the post-release discussion thread. Particularly as they exist in the spoiler zone and spoiler tags are not required (discouraged?) in the spoiler zone.

[LordLucan]

Definitely agree with point one. I think rule two is somewhat valid too.

[Athelassan]

I agree with both.

A firm policy on spoiler tags in the spoiler zone would be helpful as there does seem to be some confusion and/or disagreement on the subject. It's the sort of thing that's difficult, though, because there are grey areas. I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Tags should be used when discussing any spoilers when outside the spoiler zone.
In spoiler zone threads dedicated to a given book or series, tags for that book or series are not necessary. Tags for related books and series are discretionary*

*I would say "encouraged when in doubt" but I am very anti-spoiler in general and I know others might disagree.

Another grey area, which doesn't come up often but does occasionally, is where mentioning even the name of the book being spoiled is itself a spoiler. For instance, if a given character's inclusion in a book is a surprise, and in a thread discussing that character, or related characters, someone were to post: Well, in Legion <spoilertags> that's a Legion spoiler. I guess that's the sort of thing that's hard to avoid?

On a different (vaguely related) topic, when it comes to, say, book reviews (on the forum, rather than linked to blogs), the tendency is usually to place them in the spoiler zone (so that the book can then be discussed with spoilers) although I wonder if that actually discourages people from reading the review until they've read the book, for fear of spoilers. Should we be encouraging people to put nonspoilery reviews on the P&D board? Or does it not matter.

Ath

[Vivia]

Rob, I think both points are an excellent ideas. Avoiding mentioning names and titles could be good.

Ath, I don't think non-spoiler reviews are to be encouraged, then it would be pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion.
My suggestion is that the Spoiler Zone need specific rules.

[Rob P]

On a different (vaguely related) topic, when it comes to, say, book reviews (on the forum, rather than linked to blogs), the tendency is usually to place them in the spoiler zone (so that the book can then be discussed with spoilers) although I wonder if that actually discourages people from reading the review until they've read the book, for fear of spoilers. Should we be encouraging people to put nonspoilery reviews on the P&D board? Or does it not matter.

Ath

I would perhaps argue that reviews of some length (any length?) ought to be placed on the blog. Not because the forum is not appropriate, but because the blog needs some love.

[shadowhawk2008]

1) If a spoiler tag is used, you are required to state what it spoils. Too many threads have spoiler tagged text where you cannot deduce what it spoils without reading it and some posts have an entire block of spoiler text and no other text.

2) This is a bit of a consequence of the forum re-organisation a few months back. Anticipation and pre-release discussion threads should not evolve into the post-release discussion thread. Particularly as they exist in the spoiler zone and spoiler tags are not required (discouraged?) in the spoiler zone.

Personally, I agree with regards to point one. It's come up a lot of times recently and it's often tiring at times to mod it.

For point two, one thing I can suggest is something like this -

Pre-release: Shadows of Treachery.
Post-release: Shadows of Treachery.

Maybe this works?

[J D Dunsany]

On a different (vaguely related) topic, when it comes to, say, book reviews (on the forum, rather than linked to blogs), the tendency is usually to place them in the spoiler zone (so that the book can then be discussed with spoilers) although I wonder if that actually discourages people from reading the review until they've read the book, for fear of spoilers. Should we be encouraging people to put nonspoilery reviews on the P&D board? Or does it not matter.

Ath

I would perhaps argue that reviews of some length (any length?) ought to be placed on the blog. Not because the forum is not appropriate, but because the blog needs some love.

Non-spoilery reviews on the bloghole would probably be a good idea. I quite like long, considered reviews, though - whether they appear in the spoiler zone or not. I wouldn't want to restrict their appearance just to the blog.

As far as the other points raised on this thread, it seems to me that one of the key things we need to determine is what constitutes a spoiler and whether it's right to ask people to be more restrained in using them (with tags) in non-spoiler territory. (On a slightly unrelated point, if you use the Saphic skin for the Bolthole, the spoiler tags don't work in any case.) And I'm undecided on those two points personally. We're talking about it in the mods' forum though, so keep your ideas and opinions coming. I'm keen that we have as broad a cross-section of forum opinion before we make any kind of decision on this.

Regards,

JDD

[Rob P]

For point two, one thing I can suggest is something like this -

Pre-release: Shadows of Treachery.
Post-release: Shadows of Treachery.

Maybe this works?

Thanks you mods for taking these points into consideration.

The second point might not be required. I just remember a particular topic that evolved from pre-release to post-release and at the time it really annoyed me (it might of been Know No Fear). It's quite a narrow request as the only pre-release discussions are usually Horus Heresy.

[Rob P]

Spoilers and use of spoiler tags are getting out of hand.

Any sort of complex etiquette is doomed to fail as people can't even follow the polite request of 'no spoilers in WAYR'.

Two things that annoy me are lack of basic courtesy and the use of a spoiler tag in a non-functional way.

Two suggested hard and fast rules:

(1) No spoilers in WAYR.

(2) No spoiler tags in the spoiler zone.

Another thing that really annoyed me today is the use of spoiler tags in the spoiler zone to discuss a book that was not the titled book. This is annoying on two levels (1) Why not make a thread for the other book? (2) No warning that the content of the spoiler tagged stuff related to book x.

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A lot of this comes back to book reviews. When I read a book review I want to know certain things. Is the plot interesting? Are the characters interesting? Is the writing good? Is it well paced? Did the reviewer enjoy the book? And so on. I do not want to know the plot or wider spoilers that cannot be discerned from the source material. WAYR is perfect for this.

When I want to discuss the plot of a book i'll go to the spoiler zone.

If I want to discuss something that concerns Gulliman's motives in Calth books 1, 2 and 3 then i'll create a thread called 'Guilliman's motives in HH so far'. I will not discuss the issue in Calth book 1 thread because inevitably I will spoil books 2 and 3.

It's all common courtesy people.

Also, quite separately, all the fan fic boards should be combined into one. Gets discussed on and off on the SB (and has been for over a year) but ever comes of it.

[Xisor]

I think phrasing it as 'common courtesy' is a bit enraging, myself, but broadly speaking a formal etiquette might actually resolve things. It's not common courtesy and touting it around as if folks who are using spoiler tags (badly) are actually the height of rudeness is, in my esteem, still fairly rude, but I can't deny: it might be nice if it became a common courtesy.

Unfortunately, the suggested rules seem like a strangely severe overreaction: stifling and tedious. But then I suppose a stronger, more guided hand may be needed if it's as seriously upsetting as other people seem to feel.

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(I'm, frankly, a little baffled by the idea that it substantially, seriously irritates folks. But then I don't get to dictate what other people get annoyed about, much to my annoyance.)

[Vivia]

I agree with Xisor, it isn't a common courtesy. What I do think is that if people have told you they find it annoying numerous time, then it's common courtesy to listen to them. The forum doesn't exist for you only (general "you"), many people read it and not all agree on the same things. There are many ways to use the spoiler tags, it can't be that hard.

[Athelassan]

"Common courtesy" might be going a bit far, but when the WAYR thread devolves into private conversations between a couple of forumites talking exclusively in black boxes, I can understand why people feel it's a bit rude. Massive chunks of black everywhere are quite antisocial, and pretty ugly to boot.

As I mentioned in that thread, I hope we can all agree that when that point is reached, and non-tagged text has functionally disappeared from your posts, it's time to take it to the spoiler zone.

Regarding general use of spoiler tags, I think they do have a place on the forum, but agree that at the moment they are not always used appropriately. In particular, if they are to be used, it is essential that the post refers - specifically - to the material that it's spoiling. If you have to read the tagged material to work out whether you should read it, then the post isn't fit for purpose. Further, given that the spoiler zone exists precisely so that spoilers can be openly discussed, I would further say that if the book you're spoiling is named in the thread title, tags are redundant.

Those are essentially the principles I've been using to guide my approach to the issue of late. I would hope that they're pretty much common sense, to be honest. This will probably not be the last I have to say on the subject, but I'll leave it there for now.

[Major Rawne]

Spoiler: BOOOOOOO!!! To banning the use of unnecessary spoiler tags. They are the foundation of everything I love on the forum.