General 40K Lore Q&A

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Liliedhe » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:25 pm

Ok, I'm probably growing old and forgetful...

In Templar, the audio about Sigismund of the IF, there is mention of a dispute between Dorn and the Lion. But it does not say what the dispute is about. Is this some established thing and I'm merely clueless, or is this a new information?
"You were a warleader, a fighter, when did you gain such illuminating insight into the minds of others?"
"I learned such things as you and your brothers applied brand to my flesh and parted skin with rasp and knife," snarled Astelan. "When your witches tried to prise open my mind they opened me for an instant and I stared back."
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 am

here's one that I've always wondered, how strong is a marine both in and out of his power armour?
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Liliedhe » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:22 am

Depends on the author. I don't think exact values have ever been established.

Pretty damn strong, but while sometimes it seems ease for a Space Marine to lift another, at other times, a Marine in armour is unable to carry one out of armour. I never noted any consistency there.
"You were a warleader, a fighter, when did you gain such illuminating insight into the minds of others?"
"I learned such things as you and your brothers applied brand to my flesh and parted skin with rasp and knife," snarled Astelan. "When your witches tried to prise open my mind they opened me for an instant and I stared back."
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby SIngemeister » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:52 pm

sam vimes wrote:here's one that I've always wondered, how strong is a marine both in and out of his power armour?

As strong as the plot requires.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:31 am

Fair point lol and read some were that a primarchs name was changed who was it iirc it was only a slight change.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:25 pm

sam vimes wrote:Fair point lol and read some were that a primarchs name was changed who was it iirc it was only a slight change.

The Primarchs' names have been pretty consistent since Codex Imperialis in, iirc, 1992, which I think was the first time they were all listed. I think Ferrus Manus might originally have been spelt "Ferrus Mannus" but I'm not 100%.

Since then some of the Primarchs have had names added - Lupercal, Aurelian, ...Corvus :roll: but I don't think any of the names have been changed per se. The most radical updates have been Night Haunter's being given a name (Konrad Curze) as well as a title (Codex: Chaos, 1996) and the introduction of Omegon as a new Primarch.

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:39 pm

Thanks Ath
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:20 pm

Just some random thoughts about 40k logistics...

1) Doesn't it make more sense that most vehicles including Rhinos, Land Raiders, and even Gunships, be piloted by specialized servitors or human serfs rather than actual Space Marines? Some BL novels actually depict what I'm talking about, but not all and most of the GW game fluff has Space Marines/Tech Marines flying and driving everything. Not only would that be impossible, considering the sheer amount of vehicles that would be involved in your average SM mobilization and the relative small number of Tech Marines per chapter, but it would also be a complete waste of a Space Marine in power armor.

2) Also... how do Space Marines, Thunderhawks, drop pods, tanks etc. all get back into Orbit and back onto their respective Strike Cruisers/Battle Barges? Can Thunderwhaks/Transport Thunderhawks get back into space and into orbit? I guess from a novel standpoint and maybe even a fluff standpoint this isn't something that needs to be addressed per se, but you'd think some one would have covered this over the course of 1000's of pages of fluff and technical mumbo jumbo.

edit: Not to mention all the other Space Marine flyers: Stormraven, Stormtalon, DA fighters. Do these all drop into a planet's atmosphere along with the Thunderhawks? How do they get back after the fight is over?

edit: Another random thought. Why aren't pariahs or blanks utilized by Space Marine chapters, especially by chapters like the Black Templars that don't utilize psykers themselves? Do the High Lords prevent them from doing so?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Liliedhe » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:32 am

The Exorcists are all blanks. ^^ For the rest, I would think that either blankness does not survive becoming a Space Marine (since the process of creating them involves genetic material from the Primarchs who are all inherently psychic) or blanks are SO rare, they don't even know that blanks exist.

As for pilots, it varies? Some have Servitors, some have Scouts as pilots, also, all Space Marines are trained to Pilot those things in some way.

And Thunderhawks are definitely capable of reaching Orbit on their own, so I guess the other fliers are, too. Droppods, well, if you lose the field, then you better order a new batch^^.
"You were a warleader, a fighter, when did you gain such illuminating insight into the minds of others?"
"I learned such things as you and your brothers applied brand to my flesh and parted skin with rasp and knife," snarled Astelan. "When your witches tried to prise open my mind they opened me for an instant and I stared back."
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:31 am

I didn't realize the Exorcists were all blanks. I thought they were nearly impervious to chaos taint and did not emit a psychic signature. That isn't the same as nullifying psychic powers, which are what blanks and pariahs do. If they were all blanks, they'd be a ridiculously powerful Space Marine chapter. If we're to assume that most Space Marine chapters possess about equal combat power, then I'd say that would make the Exorcists one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful. I think you might be mistaken about them Lil.

Drop pods can be towed by Thunderhawk Transporters, but that's a lot of tonnage to carry back up into orbit. Maybe Thunderhawk rocket boosters are just that powerful? Maybe the smaller SM flyers like the Stormtalon and the DA flyers can be towed by Thunderhawk Transporters like drop pods can, because I don't really see them being able to get into orbit on their own. Anyhow, maybe someone better versed in Aerospace/Aeronautics can make better sense of this. I'm pretty much shooting in the dark.

Also I noticed something in IA volume 2: War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes. It states that a Stormtalon's top speed/straight line speed is no more than a Land Speeder's. :shock: That makes zero sense, considering they are ground attack/interceptors and escorts for Thunderhawks/Stormravens/Storm Eagles that have a top speed of slightly under Mach 2 or 2000 kph. They are suppose to be multi-role fighters... and they go at a top speed of 300 kph, the same as a Land Speeder? Dafuq??? Someone needs to have a talk with whoever is editing Forge World's books.

edit: Actually, if I were GW and FW I'd hire/consult a couple experts on military tactics and hardware just to make sure that they were producing believable fluff. Obviously it's sci-fi, but that doesn't mean it can't be as realistic as possible.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:31 pm

The Exorcists are canonically immune from daemonic possession. I think the Deathwatch stories imply that gives them some resistance from psyker powers, but they don't nullify psykers and so aren't full blanks.

As far as blank Space Marines go, the video game Space Marine

Spoiler: includes an Ultramarine, the player character, who is or appears to be a blank. Hilariously the other Ultramarines are so ignorant on the subject that he's marked as potentially tainted because Chaos doesn't affect him, and surrendered to the Inquisition at the climax.



I have no idea how canon that is, of course. :ugeek:

I've often wondered about the drop pods myself. One assumes the attrition rate is based on how often the Space Marines utilizing the drop pods are able to win a victory that permits their recovery, either by the Chapter directly or by friendly Adeptus Mechanicus personnel. Something like:

# of pods launched MINUS # of pods destroyed in air MINUS # of pods damaged beyond repair on impact MINUS # of pods launched in support of a total defeat MINUS # of pods launched onto a planet marked for Exterminatus MINUS # of pods launched onto a daemon world MINUS # of pods stolen by the Marines Malevolent MINUS

In short, a truly fearsome attrition rate! One suspects there are Chapters that can't launch a drop pod assault simply because they can't be resupplied at a decent rate.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Liliedhe » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:27 pm

revelation wrote:I didn't realize the Exorcists were all blanks. I thought they were nearly impervious to chaos taint and did not emit a psychic signature. That isn't the same as nullifying psychic powers, which are what blanks and pariahs do. If they were all blanks, they'd be a ridiculously powerful Space Marine chapter. If we're to assume that most Space Marine chapters possess about equal combat power, then I'd say that would make the Exorcists one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful. I think you might be mistaken about them Lil.

The problem with terms like "Blanks", "Pariahs" etc is that there are no real definitions, and they tend to mean different things in different contexts. Exorcists have no psychic presence, their minds can't be read, and they are immune against daemonic possession and extremely resistant against psychic powers. Sounds like the superficial description of a blank to me.

They are not like Jurgen in the Cain books, whose physical presence causes pain to psykers, and in whose presence daemons cannot exist. But Jurgen is much more powerful than the usual portrayal of a blank, I'd say.
"You were a warleader, a fighter, when did you gain such illuminating insight into the minds of others?"
"I learned such things as you and your brothers applied brand to my flesh and parted skin with rasp and knife," snarled Astelan. "When your witches tried to prise open my mind they opened me for an instant and I stared back."
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby The Hillock » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:31 pm

Re. drop pods, ADB's Night Lords trilogy makes specific reference to launching thunderhawks to collect them from the surface of a planet (I won't say where or which planet in case there's someone here who hasn't read them yet - for shame! - but it's in the second book).

A Thunderhawk Transporter can carry any given legion / chapter vehicle but I've not seen reference to them carrying Stormraven gunships. Not surprising, given that they are 'new' and there hasn't been much 40k fiction since they came out. However I wouldn't worry about it too much, as accurate aerospace engineering has never been high on the list of priorities for GW. Thunderhawks themselves would just fall out of the sky, let alone the others - nowhere near enough lift surfaces to act as anything other than a ballistic rocket. Not exactly streamlined either. I'd safely assume that if they can make orbit (or even just fly in the first place) then so can the baby ones.

There are several mentions (loads in the HH books, less so in 40k) of 'bulk landers' - these rarely seen but apparently ubiquitous transport ships that shuttle kit back and forth. I'd guess that Stormtalons, along with a lot of the other kit, would go in these.

(EDIT The reason I separate the Stormraven and Stormtalon is simply the rules (and I may have got this wrong, as I play Blood Angels and we can't use Talons) but I know Ravens have the extra, melta-proof armour supposedly for atmospheric entry whereas I don't think Talons do, therefore they must enter the atmosphere some other way. I could be wrong on that though)
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Liliedhe wrote:The problem with terms like "Blanks", "Pariahs" etc is that there are no real definitions, and they tend to mean different things in different contexts. Exorcists have no psychic presence, their minds can't be read, and they are immune against daemonic possession and extremely resistant against psychic powers. Sounds like the superficial description of a blank to me.

They are not like Jurgen in the Cain books, whose physical presence causes pain to psykers, and in whose presence daemons cannot exist. But Jurgen is much more powerful than the usual portrayal of a blank, I'd say.


Jurgen's about on par with Bequin, Frauka and the Distaff, along with the Sisters of Silence. I'd say the Exorcists are less powerful than the typical blank, though I'm basing that on very scant lore.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:24 pm

The old Inquisitor encyclopedia thing and Atlas Infernal both refer to extended scales of psychichery to accommodate Blanks/Pariahs.

By inference, there's (at least) a slide from 'kinda obscured to psykers and daemons' (a la Tau and their weird souls), to proper Blanks (inviblsible and invulnerable to Chaos, like Sensei and Illuminati) out to invulnerable and painful to psykers (Bequin?), to radiant and area effecting (that little kid) right up to fierce, violent anti-psychic souls (Culexus/Necron pariahs).

Then those things in that Bell Jar in AI... ;)

In that regard, 'classic' Exorcist stuff indicated they were 'possessed and freed', like Illuminati. That water is muddied now, but given the name, the mechanism makes a lot of sense.

There's also the case of a certain aide (The Ferryman) in the Emperor's Gift.

---

Surplus Marines.
1- Piloted by reserve company Marines. (Don't care for this idea, myself, but is somewhat plausible in general.)
2- Piloted by relevant company Marines. (Makes some sense, given the situation for bikes and Land Speeders.)
3- Piloted by dedicated 'other' Marines surplus to 1000 Marines.

I think 3 must be it. But it annoys me that no one has directly dealt with it satisfactorily.

The Admiral in the Urge Ventris books is a sort of 'retired' Marine. Could all armoury assets be manned that way that aren't directly used by Battle/Reserve/First company assets?

---
Orbit . Don't forget that Space Marine starships are still stonking huge. And capable (indeed, mostly designed for) low orbit entry to atmosphere. Drawing a starship down would reduce the cost on individual craft and materiel.

Also, SPACE Marines. I'd be surprised if any Marine flyer vehicle weren't capable of attaining orbit if bigger than a Land Speeder. Recovery of drop pods probably places limits, but then even Marine escorts might have limited drop capacity (e.g. shoals of 3-5 pods to deploy <=10 Marines). An entire Marine strike force might have fairly massive capacity. Similarly, non-Marine lifters might be employed (Arvus or similar non-coms) to some lifting work after combat.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:51 pm

Liliedhe wrote:
revelation wrote:I didn't realize the Exorcists were all blanks. I thought they were nearly impervious to chaos taint and did not emit a psychic signature. That isn't the same as nullifying psychic powers, which are what blanks and pariahs do. If they were all blanks, they'd be a ridiculously powerful Space Marine chapter. If we're to assume that most Space Marine chapters possess about equal combat power, then I'd say that would make the Exorcists one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful. I think you might be mistaken about them Lil.

The problem with terms like "Blanks", "Pariahs" etc is that there are no real definitions, and they tend to mean different things in different contexts. Exorcists have no psychic presence, their minds can't be read, and they are immune against daemonic possession and extremely resistant against psychic powers. Sounds like the superficial description of a blank to me.

They are not like Jurgen in the Cain books, whose physical presence causes pain to psykers, and in whose presence daemons cannot exist. But Jurgen is much more powerful than the usual portrayal of a blank, I'd say.


I'm pretty sure there's a standard definition of what a "blank" and a "pariah" are in the 40k universe. I mean, there's a wiki on it. Not that wikis are always right, but there is an agreed upon concept that is relatively self contained and specifically in universe. The Exorcists do not fit the definition of either.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blank_(Psychic)
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:19 pm

Xisor wrote:Surplus Marines.
1- Piloted by reserve company Marines. (Don't care for this idea, myself, but is somewhat plausible in general.)
2- Piloted by relevant company Marines. (Makes some sense, given the situation for bikes and Land Speeders.)
3- Piloted by dedicated 'other' Marines surplus to 1000 Marines.

I think 3 must be it. But it annoys me that no one has directly dealt with it satisfactorily.

The Admiral in the Urge Ventris books is a sort of 'retired' Marine. Could all armoury assets be manned that way that aren't directly used by Battle/Reserve/First company assets?


Possibly being addressed soon. Gav mentions in Master of Sanctity that a critically wounded Marine might be assigned to piloting duties, being a bit too... halved for regular duties.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:48 pm

The Hillock wrote:
A Thunderhawk Transporter can carry any given legion / chapter vehicle but I've not seen reference to them carrying Stormraven gunships. Not surprising, given that they are 'new' and there hasn't been much 40k fiction since they came out. However I wouldn't worry about it too much, as accurate aerospace engineering has never been high on the list of priorities for GW. Thunderhawks themselves would just fall out of the sky, let alone the others - nowhere near enough lift surfaces to act as anything other than a ballistic rocket. Not exactly streamlined either. I'd safely assume that if they can make orbit (or even just fly in the first place) then so can the baby ones.



(EDIT The reason I separate the Stormraven and Stormtalon is simply the rules (and I may have got this wrong, as I play Blood Angels and we can't use Talons) but I know Ravens have the extra, melta-proof armour supposedly for atmospheric entry whereas I don't think Talons do, therefore they must enter the atmosphere some other way. I could be wrong on that though)


Yeah, proper areodynamics isn't in the cards as far as 40k designs go, but there's ways to explain that stuff away by the use of 'anti-grav' or some such else tech or fail that, the universal rule of, "if it looks cool". Those 2 things are generally enough to suspend disbelief, but beyond that, even in a crazy sci fi universe like 40k, some fundamental things need to make sense. In short, the "that thing would never fly" criticism doesn't in turn imply that ALL rules get thrown out the window. That's the paradox of Sci-Fi right? It's fiction, but often times it's also an attempt to make sense of that fiction in some pseudo-scientific or creative way or in this specific case, just make basic sense of mundane things like how a Thunderhawk towing a Drop Pod gets back into space.

Oh and the Stormtalon vs Stormraven thing. Yeah, that makes sense. The smaller flyers probably wouldn't have the extra heat shielding, but who knows. If we are to assume they don't, I guess it remains a mystery how they get into a planet's atmosphere in the first place.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:04 pm

David Earle wrote:
Xisor wrote:Surplus Marines.
1- Piloted by reserve company Marines. (Don't care for this idea, myself, but is somewhat plausible in general.)
2- Piloted by relevant company Marines. (Makes some sense, given the situation for bikes and Land Speeders.)
3- Piloted by dedicated 'other' Marines surplus to 1000 Marines.

I think 3 must be it. But it annoys me that no one has directly dealt with it satisfactorily.

The Admiral in the Urge Ventris books is a sort of 'retired' Marine. Could all armoury assets be manned that way that aren't directly used by Battle/Reserve/First company assets?


Possibly being addressed soon. Gav mentions in Master of Sanctity that a critically wounded Marine might be assigned to piloting duties, being a bit too... halved for regular duties.


That's a cool and completely rational idea.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:08 pm

David Earle wrote:
Liliedhe wrote:The problem with terms like "Blanks", "Pariahs" etc is that there are no real definitions, and they tend to mean different things in different contexts. Exorcists have no psychic presence, their minds can't be read, and they are immune against daemonic possession and extremely resistant against psychic powers. Sounds like the superficial description of a blank to me.

They are not like Jurgen in the Cain books, whose physical presence causes pain to psykers, and in whose presence daemons cannot exist. But Jurgen is much more powerful than the usual portrayal of a blank, I'd say.


Jurgen's about on par with Bequin, Frauka and the Distaff, along with the Sisters of Silence. I'd say the Exorcists are less powerful than the typical blank, though I'm basing that on very scant lore.


What D Earle said.

I wouldn't say that's scant lore actually. That lore covers 2 authors and 3 separate series. I'm not as comprehensively read as some in here, but it seems to me that the concept of "blanks" (in 40k) is pretty closely related to Dan Abnett's conception of them.
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