General Whf Lore Q&A

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Vivia » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:17 pm

More like the juicy peasant blood, a total turn on for vampires. The undead and sexy don't mix. Ah!
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:34 pm

the undead are the sexiest of all the warhammer factions.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:04 pm

I think it's likely that the Blood Dragons have a disproportionately high number of members from and in Bretonnia, because of the large number of powerful, dedicated warriors there to test themselves against and possibly recruit to their cause. The Order of the Dragon was based on the Bretonnian border (iirc) so there are probably quite a few Bretonnian members of the Order itself, and the rest of the bloodline will likely think similarly. The same goes for the Empire, but probably not quite to the same extent.

Of course, there are BDs almost everywhere, but they will gravitate towards areas of dense population, and our focus for everything is on the Old World anyway, so we see a lot of Bretonnians and Imperials. But there probably are a lot from and in this area even taking that into account.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Vivia » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:34 am

It's possible warrior/knight vampires travel specifically to Bretonnia to join the BD?
My picture of the BD is the way Bloodquest AU went, BD knights travelled outside of Bretonnia to find worthy enemies/battles, in a quest for blood. Blood Angels characters turned into ebil vampires. Best Plot Ever.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:33 am

I think it's pretty likely.

On a related note, I've been rereading some old army books of late and it's turned up a couple of things I found surprising. The first mention of the Bloodlines we now recognise was in the 5th edition Vampire book, but the form is slightly different to what we might expect. The Blood Dragons are given their origin with Walach Harkon and no earlier history or pedigree is mentioned, rather like the von Carsteins who begin with Vlad and no earlier indication of where they come from. Neferata is indicated as the sire of the Lahmians, but W'Soran is absent from the backstory of the Necrarchs.

However, W'Soran (called here "the father of vampires") and Abhorash, together with Ushoran and Vashanesh, are mentioned in the fluff at the start; it's just not indicated that they founded Bloodlines or what those Bloodlines were.

It's not hugely relevant to modern understandings of the background, especially as the Vampires were re-released within two years of that book, but it does mean that Vashanesh in particular has a longer pedigree than he's usually given credit for (he's often cited as having been a creation of the Liber Necris).

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:35 am

I think my modern interpretation is that there were initially 7 bloodlines, now there are more. We don't know all of them.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:17 am

It depends what you class as a "bloodline", of course. Perhaps there's cause for a capital in there: there are only seven Bloodlines, but many bloodlines. Of course, interbreeding between Bloodlines isn't easy, but that doesn't mean that a sufficiently powerful vampire can't exert their own stamp on their portion of a line. Of course, we've had this discussion before.

I also think it's a mistake to think of the bloodlines as distinct, rival entities. The Lahmians and von Carsteins have a lot in common and, according to The Vampire Wars (and, indirectly, though it makes my teeth ache to acknowledge it, Manslayer and the Ulrika series), had an alliance during Mannfred's era, with Adolphus Krieger apparently siding with the von Carsteins after the breach despite being a Lahmian by birth (can you tell I dislike Nathan Long's take on this? Can you?) I can see a Blood Dragon serving as a general under a von Carstein overlord or acting as a champion for a Lahmian or even a Necrarch if it meant he got to test his abilities on a regular basis. A Necrarch might well join their cause if he was promised first dibs on any libraries and vaults ransacked.

Even the most physically distinctive, the children of Ushoran, will have differences. While the majority of Strigoi will be debased ghouls, that doesn't necessarily mean they all are. Some of them might have managed to survive on fresh blood, left Strigos before the collapse and established their own lines elsewhere. Or perhaps one of the Ghoul Kings got hold of enough fresh blood that he was able to arrest and reverse the physiological decline. And a "true" Strigoi would be very similar in most respects to a von Carstein or Lahmian.

Not to mention that we don't even know what the pure bloodline of Vashanesh (or Maatmeses or Harakhte) looks like, assuming that the von Carsteins don't represent the whole of it - and even assuming that Vlad and Vashanesh are one and the same, I think it's unlikely that that's the case.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:26 am

to be fair to Nathan it seems like he was misinformed or at least not properly informed. Part of me likes to think that the Von Carsteins are just a delusional pretend Bloodline, they like to think they're a bloodline and are all special but they're not.

It takes a special Vampire to be influential and forceful enough in personality (or even just sheer force of nature they're magical creatures after all) to be able to create a distinct bloodline so even if Vlad isn't Vashanesh and I don't think he is not being that old doesn't mean he hadn't become something comparable in stature.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:32 pm

The bloodlines thing strikes me as odd; how can there be 'interbreeding'. Vampirically, you only have on sire (and then the chain back of their's). It strikes me as bifurcation. You can be 'created by a Lahmian', but you aren't therefore a Lahmian. You can move off and do your own thing, or by nature be your own thing (accounting for some, shall we say 'mutation' in vampire power?).

So, as time goes on, lineages become independent distinct things, but they mix by culture or by association, not by actual blood...surely?

(E.g. Once you're into several generations of vampire, you find they start clustering, some by actual blood lineage, but most by other things. But the bloodlines can start further down the tree...e.g. as seems likely for the von Carsteins.)

So bloodline is a grouping of proximate 'branches' linked to a common ancestor, not one of 'seven definitive bloodlines going through all vampires' (though there are surely only a discrete number of 'common to all' ancestors: the original vampires, then Nagash).

If I'm right, then that's where the '7' comes from. 7 originals, but a 'true Lahmian' would be someone within a few generations of Neferetta (even if 'created' in 2520). But original spawn of Neferetta could have many many generations of descent going off from them, dozens, hundreds perhaps. Are those distant generations Lahmians? Culturally, possible. By bloodline? Well, it really depends how vampire blood traits work, and it seems that they aren't conserved that well.

(Diagrams would help this.)
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:12 pm

I think this sort of ties into my crazy theory that vampirism is caused by tiny microbiotic daemons, a magic virus if you would. The more they transfer the more chance they'll "mutate" into something subtly different. So what you have are variants of the original 7.

Swine Lahmian and Bird Lahmian to use a flu analogy. Still a flu, just different.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Like midichlorians? ;)

Of course, it's difficult to determine what traits of a vampire are actually heritable and which are personality traits. Not many of the bloodlines have obvious physiological traits. The Strigoi are the most obvious here; they're monsters. The Necrarchs are withered and physically repulsive, but that could be as a result of their lifestyle rather than an inherited trait. Von Carsteins can control the weather and creatures of the night (and turn into them). But Blood Dragons and Lahmians? Nothing. There's not much to distinguish a second-generation Lahmian from a fourteenth-generation one except for lifestyle and personality. The one break-off line from the Lahmians of which I'm aware (that of Melissa d'Acques) isn't actually any physically different from "regular" Lahmians, they just don't really agree with them. Assuming that vampirism exaggerates personality traits that are already present, and given that Blood Dragons select only the best and most obsessive warriors, they're all likely to share similar obvious personality traits and abilities, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything special in the blood that makes them great warriors.

(I feel I've had this discussion before, recently).

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:26 pm

Possibly you have, but I haven't, so I'll run with it.

A fourteenth generation Lahmian would probably have more likelihood of being 'not so Lahmian'. Two Lahmians of the same generation created millennia apart - probably quite similar in 'style' if met contemporaneously, but a 20th generation Lahmian and a 1st Gen, both of the same age alive (e.g. both created ~2500) would probably be radically different.

With each generation you have the 'personality of the spawner' influencing its spawn. So a generation 'near' the original common ancestor is probably quite close (culturally and affectations too) compared to an umpteenth generation nobody.

The further from the original vampires you are, the more likelihood you've got some distinction or gimmick (or 'lack') which demonstrates distance and distinction from their predecessors.

That is: there's really only limited selection at work on the vampires, they're prone to...mutation. Perhaps even via their own will. (It takes a lot of will not to become the monster. Lower will over longer time...more monstery.)

In that regard, the ultimate immortality of the vampire species is...fleeting. If they don't achieve their personal victory and are forced to reproduce...they get worse, largely. (Unless some successor happens to improve sufficiently as an individual.)

The unnatural rules and dynamic at work here are fascinating me. I'm tempted to go read more On the Origin of the Species and consider some fanfic...
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby davij038 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:27 pm

Athelassan wrote:

Of course, it's difficult to determine what traits of a vampire are actually heritable and which are personality traits. Not many of the bloodlines have obvious physiological traits. The Strigoi are the most obvious here; they're monsters. The Necrarchs are withered and physically repulsive, but that could be as a result of their lifestyle rather than an inherited trait. Von Carsteins can control the weather and creatures of the night (and turn into them). But Blood Dragons and Lahmians? Nothing. There's not much to distinguish a second-generation Lahmian from a fourteenth-generation one except for lifestyle and personality. The one break-off line from the Lahmians of which I'm aware (that of Melissa d'Acques) isn't actually any physically different from "regular" Lahmians, they just don't really agree with them. Assuming that vampirism exaggerates personality traits that are already present, and given that Blood Dragons select only the best and most obsessive warriors, they're all likely to share similar obvious personality traits and abilities, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything special in the blood that makes them great warriors.

Ath


I don't think that the Necrarch's are that way due to their lifestyle (although it doesn't help)- W'soran was a priest of the mortuary cult and already many years old when he drank the elixir, and all vampires take some portion of the first of their bloodline with them. Physically, no probably not but it would certainly change their character traits slightly.

Strigoi are only as they are now through the devolution of their kind. Also Lahmians and BDs have been observed also their changing their forms..

There were details of the two missing bloodlines on an (Non canon) WFRP internet source.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Xisor wrote:Possibly you have, but I haven't, so I'll run with it.

A fourteenth generation Lahmian would probably have more likelihood of being 'not so Lahmian'. Two Lahmians of the same generation created millennia apart - probably quite similar in 'style' if met contemporaneously, but a 20th generation Lahmian and a 1st Gen, both of the same age alive (e.g. both created ~2500) would probably be radically different.

With each generation you have the 'personality of the spawner' influencing its spawn. So a generation 'near' the original common ancestor is probably quite close (culturally and affectations too) compared to an umpteenth generation nobody.


But surely the longer your sire has been alive the more effect their nature has had on the vampirism they pass on to you?

I suppose there'll be the affect of significantly fewer "cooks" on the Vampirism broth so it'll taste more like the original recipe but the cook who has been at it for 2000 years has undoubtedly over seasoned it.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:04 am

if spite is considered a runty cold one at nearly 30ft long! Then how big is a normal one?
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:07 am

where does it say he's 30ft long?
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:58 am

in the darkblade books he is described many times as nearly 30ft and close to a ton in weight
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Vivia » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:02 pm

I've wondered this myself a few times. How big would a normal Cold One be? Problem is I don't know how to measure feet, it's such an old-fashion measurement system. How many meters is a foot (lol)?

Edit: 30 feet are 9,15 m. That is big, I thought perhaps 4-5 meters. Spite doesn't look that big on the cover of The Daemon's Curse.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:34 pm

Imperial measurements (useful for fantasy as they are the standard there):

1 inch - roughly 2.5cm (based on the size of a man's thumb, or (in England) three corns of barley)
12 inches = 1 foot - about 30cm
3 feet = 1 yard - almost a metre (based on the distance between your thumb and your nose)
2 yards = 1 fathom (about the distance between your outstretched fingertips)
22 yards = 1 chain - a little more than 20 metres (based on the length of an actual chain)
220 yards = 1 furlong - 200m almost exactly (based on the length of one furrow in a field)
1,760 yards/8 furlongs = 1 mile - about 1.6km (based on the length of a thousand paces)
3 miles = 1 league - a bit under 5km (roughly the distance a man can walk in an hour)

1 acre = one furlong by one chain - roughly 0.4 hectares

1 nautical mile = about 1.15 land miles (nautical miles, like metric measurements, were derived from the Earth's measurements)

1 knot = 1 nautical mile per hour

Many of these terms, especially the more obscure ones, are readily abused by those who don't fully understand them. For instance, in the (appalling) film Season of the Witch, the distance from the town to the monastery was described as "four thousand leagues". Assuming that the town is in France, this would mean that the monastery was located somewhere to the southeast of New Zealand.

It's worth noting too that the measurements don't always match up that well with what they're supposed to be based on, because humans are different shapes and sizes. But when there's no tape measure handy it's still a good rule of thumb (geddit) for rough estimates.

Back on topic

30 feet seems big for Spite to me, especially if the weight is "only" a ton. A saltwater croc weighs about a metric ton when fully grown and is under 20 feet, and there's no way you could ride one of those. In fact, 30ft is bloody enormous - about the size of an Allosaurus, which you'd have thought is a closer analogue to a Carnosaur (and weighs nearly three tons). I'd have thought a Cold One would be closer in size to a Utahraptor (the lower end of the scale) at around 15 - 20 feet with anything larger being a serious monster, and (allowing for bigger bone structure since it's being ridden) probably a little under a ton in weight as standard.

Depiction of Cold Ones has varied, though - the original Cold One models were agile, dromaeosaurid types, the 6th edition ones were lumbering beasts that looked a bit like reptilian cows and were about as manoeuvrable, while the current ones revert more to the original type. The Spite from the books seems to have the agility of the former and the strength and endurance of the latter, although it's worth bearing in mind that the books were written with the "cow" Cold Ones on the shelves but based on a comic with a raptor-like Spite, so we can cut the author some slack, I think.

To be honest, I find the Darkblade books so difficult to reconcile with the rest of the background that, like Xisor has talked about with Nagash, I find that the only way to deal with them and keep my sanity is to treat them as "in-universe legends" - in Darkblade's case, the sort of thing druchii mothers tell their children to scare them into eating their greens(kin caviar, a delicacy in Karond Kar). The stories are good enough to be worth keeping, but they just don't sync properly with anything else.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Vivia » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:54 pm

Thanks a lot, that's very helpful. But omg, they aren't easy to remember. :)
30 feet does seem a little excessive. I'm trying to read through The Daemon's Curse to find something but I get distracted by the story, heh. From p.26, with bad grammar and all:
Her nauglir, Render, was a giant beast, fully a third again as long as Malus's Spite and half a ton heavier.


The Darkblade series is one of my favourites, I didn't know they were so inaccurate. Here I thought I had some knowledge of the Dark Elves.
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