The Debaters' Lounge

[Rob P]

[Slightly tongue-in-cheek]

This thread has more heated argument than anything in the lounge at this moment.

[shadowhawk2008]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious sir. Good day.

[schaferwhat‽]

Raz originally didn't say anything as a moderator but later edited in a moderator based comment.

I referenced myself and Lucan purely as we were acting as moderators and that is what we were discussing. I did not retroactively moderate the issue at all, I don't have any idea why you believe that I did. I accept that others were involved in the argument but I really cannot see what you are getting at here.

I may be misremembering however I'm sure I initally read a post where you expressed disapointment in GR for using such simplistic reasoning concerning americans as you thought he was smarter than that. Later that morning a more moderator based comment cropped up which I thought was edited in place of your inital statement but I may be wrong. I wasn't really getting at anything Raz I'm just being a total *expletive deleted* today it seems and certainly wasn't aiming a barb at you with it. I left the thread early to go to work so I don't know what moderatory things happened there, all I know is that everyone took issue with Green's assertion and I put allot of effort into trying to explain to him how he was undermining any decent points he may have been making with such crass statements in order to better Green as a person and now all that effort has been lost forever and I am sad and Green will never change and all the evil he does from now on is solely your responsiblity Raz! (not that I'm blaming you).

Response because of new posts:
I dunno, I posted a really badly phrased post born with more obtuseness and complaint than the message I wanted to portray but PMing just seems a bit odd when I'm not being moderated and thus not putting up a defense for what I posted and trying to explain why in future mods should not post future occurances of simular posts. The getting out of control issue is one that I get and respect and I certainly don't want this to become some sort of anti-Mod hunt at all. I would just counter with the fact that the moderation guidelines which will assumably be retospectively enforced onto all us members having agreed to and what not are being done in silence by a team that is having issues with public exception to their actions. Some people may not like that so much, I understand the logistical reasons for it and I can live with the community here not being consulted before stuff like this gets launched, I think I made clear earlier in the thread I don't like it so much and hopefully the reasons why.

Sorry for being a pain everybody. It's not likely to stop entirely, someone here has to keep everybody else honest and it is my job to kill that person before they succeed in their task.

[Raziel4707]

Sorry if I came off a bit defensive, actually. I've had a bloody awful migraine all day and was not in the best of moods.

The mod policy is being worked on, we're just keen to get it right first time when it goes live, so please bear with us. Shouldn't be more than a day or so now.

[Green River]

I left the thread early to go to work so I don't know what moderatory things happened there, all I know is that everyone took issue with Green's assertion and I put allot of effort into trying to explain to him how he was undermining any decent points he may have been making with such crass statements in order to better Green as a person and now all that effort has been lost forever and I am sad and Green will never change and all the evil he does from now on is solely your responsiblity Raz! (not that I'm blaming you).

LMAO I've been rumbled!

[schaferwhat‽]

see personally, rather than have it "right" when it goes live, I'd rather have the oppotunity to rip it to shreds before it goes live and demand you do better.

For example what I'm after is "how moderation works" as in a clear commitment that any post moderated would be accompanied by a PM to explain why moderation happened with the person whose post got moderated so that the mod is opening up the discourse and explaining their position so that people can learn from their mistakes (which hasn't always happened in the past) or get a better oppotunity to defend their post and explain why they thought it was appropriate which might prove enlightening for the moderator in future.

[Pyroriffic]

Also, we have established that Schafe is the Devil's Advocaat.

[Dorian]

I would love to be a part of the Debater's Lounge. And yes, I understood the rules laid out. Heh.

[Pyroriffic]

Consider yourself added, Dorian.

[Atlantic]

If this is the appropriate venue, I'll sign up

[Xisor]

Quick, someone delete the "Dorian and Atlantic are silly plonkers" threads before they get in! Oh no, too late!

[shadowhawk2008]

If this is the appropriate venue, I'll sign up

You are in my friend.

[Bod the inquisitor]

see personally, rather than have it "right" when it goes live, I'd rather have the oppotunity to rip it to shreds before it goes live and demand you do better.

For example what I'm after is "how moderation works" as in a clear commitment that any post moderated would be accompanied by a PM to explain why moderation happened with the person whose post got moderated so that the mod is opening up the discourse and explaining their position so that people can learn from their mistakes (which hasn't always happened in the past) or get a better oppotunity to defend their post and explain why they thought it was appropriate which might prove enlightening for the moderator in future.

I've been holding fire but no longer.

I totally agree with you Schafer, As one of those who had a post "disappeared" from the, um troublesome thread, it would have been a little PM to just say whether I was at fault. I had thought I was sort off supporting LL's comments after all.

That said I do understand, generally, the action taken by the moderation team, though I do have to say it was perhaps a little heavy handed in some respects but I'm not privy to the complaints made.

Also like Schafer I would like more clarification on the moderation policy as I'm confused as to why GR's whole thread attracted quite this much attention from the moderation team. I have seen far more suspect posts else where. I.e. I have seen a post that is, if not over the line, then damned close enough to be a concern with respect to disabilty, yet nothing was done. I'm not trying to get the poster in trouble mind. I suspect it was made because of a lack of knowledge and not malaice. Am I to assume that such posts are allowed if no one complains, or was it an over sight, or am I being over sensitive when some one makes a joke at the expense of a disability.

[shadowhawk2008]

It might have been an oversight, especially if the post is still up. Without seeing the contents of the post, my first reaction is that you are not being oversensitive to the alleged content. Making fun of something like that is pretty low.

If the post is still up, I would recommend that you contact anyone in the team and bring it to their attention.

[schaferwhat‽]

Of course this brings up the issue of personal taste. Bod clearly whilst disagreeing with the post gave it the benefit of the doubt and didn't report it. Others report things that they feel stronger about but which may not be so bad. Will all things that get reported result in some degree of moderation action or will the moderator actually pass some sort of judgement and maybe decide that the report wasn't really justified and leave it alone? (Another thing that may be good to clarify in future with the mod guidelines whilst you're still drawing them up perhaps).

[LordLucan]

Of course this brings up the issue of personal taste. Bod clearly whilst disagreeing with the post gave it the benefit of the doubt and didn't report it. Others report things that they feel stronger about but which may not be so bad. Will all things that get reported result in some degree of moderation action or will the moderator actually pass some sort of judgement and maybe decide that the report wasn't really justified and leave it alone? (Another thing that may be good to clarify in future with the mod guidelines whilst you're still drawing them up perhaps).

At present, if I recall correctly, standard procedure is to kick it up to the mod thread, and reach a consensus over whether further action should be taken, or whether it should simply be left alone.

[schaferwhat‽]

by kick it up do you mean move the thread to the mod board where no one else can see or access it or just bring it up and leave the thread to it's own devices?

[LordLucan]

Well, the post is quoted in a mod thread yeah, but I don't think we remove the thread from the public board entirely. Would you prefer the mods to discuss the issue with the poster on the thread itself? Or just leave a note in the thread requesting the forumite to consider his terminology more carefully?

[J D Dunsany]

There are nuances of response available to mods ranging from ignoring the original complaint to issuing a friendly warning via PM to a more public intervention (from a 'spoilering' of the post to a lockdown of the thread). And any one of those interventions will tend to be made by a consultative decision between the mods. But, they're very much, by their nature, ad hoc (and subjective) judgments that others on the boards (the original poster of the offending post, most likely) will probably disagree with. That's just the nature of the beast.

A distinction probably needs to be made between a one-off incident that requires such a judgement and a more serious pattern of behaviour that may require something more systematic, true, but the latter would, I think, be a very rare occurrence.

I'll be honest, though, schafe. None of the mods agreed to moderate these forums in order to 'throw their weight around'. We would quite like a quiet life, to be absolutely honest. Whatever you think about the decisions we've made, they've been made with the entire community in mind. We're never going to please all of the people all of the time.

As to mods appearing to be unapproachable or heavy-handed, we're here, we're listening and we're trying to take account of what people are saying. We do respond to complaints but we try to do so in a fair way that reflects the ethos of the site as outlined in the forum guidelines we all signed up to when we joined this forum. Which is primarily a BL-related site, not one for talking about off-topic stuff.

Regards,

JDD

PS: Just seen LL's post. As I've just said, the action taken will depend entirely on the nature of the issue. But, every issue does get discussed by the moderators as a team, although, naturally, an individual mod may well take the lead in terms of being the 'public face' of that decision. And he or she would be the go-to person for members to PM regarding any follow-up or concern about the issue being moderated.

[schaferwhat‽]

Well, the post is quoted in a mod thread yeah, but I don't think we remove the thread from the public board entirely. Would you prefer the mods to discuss the issue with the poster on the thread itself? Or just leave a note in the thread requesting the forumite to consider his terminology more carefully?

Well ultimately it depends on the nature of the complaint, the nature of the post that was complained about and the general context of the thread and how the discussion is going.

If you think more inflamatory (likely to be reported) posts are likely than a friendly warning to deter escalation/continuation would seem wise whilst ultimate decisions are being made by the mod team. However there's always a call for leaving a certain amount of information online so that it can be kept as an example (if a post is deleted/mostly snipped other users won't know what happened or what to avoid) and I'm a big fan for the concept of moderators initiating the discussion with the moderated explaining why they moderated the thread (obviously leaving out details of who made the complaint to stop things getting nasty) and engaging with the moderated so that it is certain they understand why it happened and any disagreements/thoughts they may have can be aired in private to the mod, fed back if need be to the full mod team and if that means that decisions are made slightly differently in the future that can be a thing (obviously undoing moderation won't be feasible but saying "we'll/I'll take that into consideration in the future" if a user has a point can't hurt) and that way everyone feels respected and there is a mixture of private/public discourse about what is going on and everyone should know what is happening and for why which limits the scope of bad feeling.

PS: Just seen JDD's post. Again I'm stressing I don't mean to be getting at any mods here and I apologise if it seems that way, I'm just voicing my opinion in a loud beligerant way in order to bend you all to my will (by which I mean this happens to be something I appear to be passionate about so I'm being a pain about it). I never thought you were here to throw your power around and I understand the dificulties about this site merely Moderation isn't as transparent or accountable as perhaps it could be to work most efficently (by which I mean fostering the least ill-feeling) and I brought such concerns up a fair old while ago and life has been good in the mean time and for whatever reason there are issues again now and it's a shame.

I have said on MSN and Facebook that maybe the best course of action is to lose this off topic forum (and the debaters lounge) if it's an issue. This forum exists primarly for BL fiction, and the GWverses as well as fostering a writing community, it's justifiable to drop this place just move some "safe" off topic threads to the general board like Doctor Who, Game of Thrones, Film and Music. You'll be relaxed and letting stuff slide for our general discussions about but you aren't inviting a free for all any more cos worms they live in cans and make us fearful for the nature of the perserved goods that stock our bomb shelters.